Artist:
DEFIANCE
Country:
USA
Respondent:
Jim Adams (guitars)

Prelude: Defiance, one of the most underrated bands to come out of the bay area thrash scene, released three albums and then seemingly vanished from the world's metal scene almost over night. My own band, Sanity's Void, was very much influenced by the bay area sound in 1992; and while the other guys in my band did not take an excessive interest in Defiance, if any, I sure did. The first Demo we cut shows it, at least a little bit with songs like Burning your Cross and Law of the Masses, rounded out by a bay area sound meets heavy Brazilian thrash. I was and am a huge fan of the bay area Thrash sound. I consider the bands from that era/movement to be the best metal has ever seen. And with current trends, I believe the best the world will ever see. After taking a break from music myself and getting a good paying job in 2000, I began to switch out my tapes for CD's. When it came to my Defiance Void Terra Firma, I decided I should also look for anything else they had done. In my research I discovered they were no longer together. This was not surprising but until then I had not confirmed it. I also discovered that they had three albums other than the two I knew about and the one I owned. It was not easy but with the help of the Internet I finally rounded up all their albums. And lucky for me I picked them all up at 5 bucks each, except for my second copy of Void Terra Firma, which I used in making a pristine CD out of the Two Promo's I had. That second copy ran me $15.00. And every one I found was a promo. I am working on fixing that too...... So then I started thinking about this band and how it should reform. After all Metal was on the comeback and months later we saw the success of the Thrash of the Titans show. So began a quest to actually track down someone from the band. And being a metal head that came to age in the 80's, I knew tracking down old metal gods could be difficult. But this is the age of the Internet, and most of the members were not in a high profile band anymore, so I began. I used every means I could think of: phone book directories, the net, networking and even placing an add in a metal magazine and contacting the Oakland Hells Angels chapter. I had no idea what I could say to the members of Defiance that would make them see the importance of a reformation. I just knew I had to try. It was over a year and I had the nagging feeling that time was running out. Then one day it came to me. Jim Adams had done a search on I assume the band's name, and found my post in a news group. Obviously Jim misses something about the band. I had an e-mail from him one morning and this is how this interview came to be. At first I was just asking questions about his old band I knew little about other than their albums. Then I decided this should be shared with the world. And it seems to be great timing as you will read below. Enjoy! - Mike

Mike Dietz: Jim thanks for submitting to this interview. I know many fans are going to relish reading this. Lets start off with some little known facts about the band, how it started and what the guys are up to now since Defiance stopped making music?
Jim Adams: Ok, lets see.....the band was formed in 1985 by Brad Bowers and Matt Vander Ende in Oakland Ca. The name Defiance came from Brad and his girlfriend being suspended from school for 'defiance.' They soon found Mike Kaufmann (bass) and Doug Harrington (guitar) to complete the original line up. Without a singer they played a show that came to be known as the 'Bloodbath.' Paul Baloff (Of Exodus fame) came up and sang for the band at that show (making it up as he went). Soon after that in the summer of 1986, Brad and Doug could no longer stand to work with each other...since at that time the band was still considered to be Brad's, they had me audition and I replaced Doug. After working with Brad for about 4 months and doing one show, I too realized that I could not work with Brad. So we let Brad go and rehired Doug. Our original singer was Mitch Mayes, who was a friend of mine from high school. He wrote the lyrics for a few of the songs on the first album (Product of Society, Deadly Intentions, etc.). Deadly Intentions was originally a song Mitch and I wrote together in our high school band 'Attrition.' That band, by the way also featured Tyler Clark on drums who later was the original drummer for Ultraspank (Epic records). After a few months and a few shows, Mitch exited and we found Ken Elkington. Soon after Ken's arrival we recorded a demo. This demo was taken to Europe with our then manager Ace Cook who was working for Testament as a roadie. He distributed the tape to people on the scene and someone (can't remember the name) gave a copy to Roadrunner records. Monte from Roadrunner contacted us and gave us a seven album deal of which we only completed three. :( As far as what we are up to now, Steev Esquivel as you know is playing with Skin Lab, Mike Kaufmann went to law school and is getting ready to take the bar (he still plays in a band too), Doug Harrington works in sales, is married with a brand new baby, Matt Vander Ende got married, but I haven't talked to him since the wedding, I am also married with children, I am working in the Silicon Valley as a Systems Administrator. I heard a rumor that Matt was playing in a country band (Salsa? Ed.) in Vegas, but I don't know if that is true.

Mike - Jim, when did you start playing and what made you decide to pick up the guitar?
Jim - I started playing guitar when I was 12. I was inspired to pick it up after hearing the version of Kiss's Black Diamond off of Alive.
Mike - How did you become the exceptional guitar player you became? What was your practice routine before you started playing in bands?
Jim - I never felt that I got to where I wanted with regard to technical skills. My practice routine when I started was basically, every waking moment I could spare. I didn't party or anything like that when I was young so I had a lot of free time. I used to watch the NBA in my room with the sound turned down so I had something to 'zone out' on while practicing scales and the like. I always tried to keep an open mind about music so that I could learn from everything. My very favorite guitarist of all time is Steve Morse (The Dregs, Deep Purple, etc.) He could play any type of music....well! That always inspired me to keep working. Of course, I say that now, having not picked up a guitar in over six months. ;-)

Mike - Paul Baloff died not too long ago. Were you friends with Baloff or just an acquaintance? What were your thoughts on his death other then it really sucked?
Jim - I was more just an acquaintance. I knew him from mutual friends like Mike Kaufmann. Paul lived a very hard life. I agree that it sucked that he passed away so young.

Mike - I heard Defiance cut a forth album before breaking up. True or false? I also heard there was a guitar player added with you or Doug leaving. True? If all true why on earth was it never released? Who sang on it?
Jim - We did not record a forth album. After the release of Beyond, I left the band to join Indica. A few months later, Matt left the band and joined Laaz Rockit. I then returned to the band a few months after. While moving through endless drummers (no one could match Matt), Steev got fed up and quit. We hired Dave (Godfrey) White from Heathen fame and found a killer drummer named Hugo Barientos (sp). Realizing that we sounded nothing like Defiance and did all new material, we changed the name to 'Inner Threshold' or IT for short. We did a few gigs and recorded a demo (with Rob Beaton as producer). A little while later, I left again. They replaced me with Chris Long. Soon after I left, Dave left as well. Chris took over singing (while still playing guitar) and they changed the name again, to Under. The rest I assume you know.

Mike - WHY DID DEFIANCE BREAK UP?
Jim - Many reasons, but as you can see from my last answer.....Defiance didn't really break up, it just kept evolving.

Mike - When will you be putting up a DEFIANCE web site? Who cares the band is now defunct the fans want a site with more photo's and facts we don't know. You work in Computers you should have the skills to put up a site.
Jim - I started one, but once again, I am pretty busy right now. There is a nice one done by a guy in Holland named Max Duijsens at: www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Disco/6066/. The one I started to work on is: www.geocities.com/jadams103/. Needs work....lots of work.

Mike - Did you guys make a living off music or did you have to keep day jobs?
Jim - Most of the time we had to keep our day jobs. There was a short period while recording Beyond that we were able to stop working.

Mike - How do I tell when it's you or Doug playing lead on the albums? What was the difference in tone on Void Terra Firma between you and Doug on the Rhythm tracks?
Jim - Doug is the one doing all the wammy bar stuff. I played a LesPaul and did more of the fast scales and stuff. Can't remember a big difference in tones on Void.....we did that whole thing live (except solos and voice).

Mike - Where is the first two singers? Why did Ken Elkington leave?
Jim - Last I heard Mitch was living in Hollywood running a small business that produced and distributed a video called 'Brawling Broads' http://brawlinbroads.com/. He also worked as a radio personality for a while at www.comedyworld.com which has since gone under. Ken... I heard he took off to Alaska for a while and ended up in Atlanta, but I don't really know. Ken was let go do to 'personal issues' he was having that was effecting his ability to perform in Defiance.

Mike - Do you still love Thrash? What do you think of the new metal out?
Jim - Yeah of course! :) I honestly listen to mostly an 'oldies' station up here that plays hard rock from 'my' time called 'The Bone' www.1077thebone.com (I think). I've been listening to the new CD from Audioslave which seems pretty good. I liked the last CD from Disturbed. I'm sure there is more out there, but I don't get out much these days.

Mike - Who's idea was it to put KILLERS on Void Terra Firma?
Jim - I believe that was Mike's idea. He was a *huge* Steve Harris fan. Killers was one of my favorite all time albums, so I didn't have any objections.

Mike - On the KILLERS Cover song on Void Terra Firma, did you guys ever get any feed back from Steve Harris or Iron Maiden on it? If so what came back? By the way, the way you guys thrashed out that song really was excellent and gave the song a new lease on life.
Jim - Not that I heard. I did hear that Bruce Dickinson slammed us for doing it. Funny, since he did not sing on the Killers album.

Mike - The Product of Society and Beyond Recognition albums had better production then Void Terra Firma. Why was this? Was it a Money issue? What was the reason for the live track takes on Void Terra Firma and do you think anything would have been done differently if the band could do it all over again?
Jim - Void was done in an eighteen day window (including overdubs and mixing). That was all the time we had, so we couldn't really be as picky as we would have liked. The album as you said, was recorded live (at least all the rhythm tracks and drums). It was not exactly a normal set up though. While Mike, Doug and myself were in the main studio with the producer, Matt was two buildings down in a converted barn. This made communication a little weird. It was also challenging to play the songs without being able to see a drummer.

Mike - Back in 1988 to 1993 what were the members of Defiance into as far as listening to other metal bands?
Jim - We had very different tastes in music. I can't really remember what everyone was listening to at that time. I do remember it changing quite a bit.

Mike - Jim, how did the members of Defiance get along? Was everyone easy to work with?
Jim - Yeah, for the most part we got along. We were like brothers, which meant we could fight like brothers too.

Mike - were you present at the "Bloodbath"? What was your reaction as someone watching the band?
Jim - No. I was though, constantly reminded about it from the other members.

Mike - Why did Mitch Meyes leave the band?
Jim - Personal differences.

Mike - Why did you leave the band that later became Ultraspank?
Jim - When I moved to Santa Barbara, I had no idea how difficult it would be to make a living there. The place is pretty much a college/retirement community, so good paying jobs are kind of scarce. So after being down there for about six months I realized I needed to make more money to cover my bills. I ended up being offered my old job back in the Bay Area with a raise. I couldn't pass that up, so I moved back and commuted to Santa Barbara every weekend (three days a week) for practice and gigs. The rest of the band felt that this arrangement was 'too stressful' for them, so after about four months, they let me go.

Mike - Who was Bond (007) Custom Guitars and how did you come to be endorsed by this custom shop? Is it still in business? Were you contracted to play only their guitars?
Jim - James (Jim) Bond was a close friend of our original manager Ace Cook. He introduced us to Jim and we quickly became friends. Jim was very good at repairing and building guitars. Doug's signature cherrywood Strat was built by hand by Jim Bond (including cutting down the tree to make the body). My signature 'Bloody' Les Paul (nicknamed Bloody Lester) was an early 70's Custom model that Jim had modified. All of Jim's guitar's were labeled with a wood stamp on the upper neck that simply read '007.' He also was our guitar technician on most of our road trips and tours. We didn't have a formal contract with Jim, just our word we would play no other guitars. We've lost touch with Jim, so we have no idea if he is still in the guitar business or not.

Mike - Is there any guitar or bass tablature on the market for any of your albums?
Jim - Not that I'm aware of, that would be pretty cool though.

Mike - Describe the level of excitement with each album the band released. Looking back what was your Favorite Defiance Album?
Jim - Every album brought a great amount of excitement. The level would gradually build as we were writing and rehearsing the new numbers all the way into the studio. I always felt the worst part was waiting for them to show up on the record store shelves. My favorite album was the last, Beyond Recognition. It's too bad Roadrunner didn't push that one. I think we could have one over some more fans and kept the ball rolling.

Mike - Was the Demo that Defiance recorded that landed you the Road Runner Record Deal ever professionally packaged for public sale? And is there any chance that you will ever offer a repressed version on the Defiance memorial web site you are putting up? The hard core Defiance fans would no doubt kill or steal for a copy.
Jim - We never had a commercial release for that demo. I hope I still have a copy somewhere.

Mike - Looking back, was signing for seven albums a mistake? And were their any negative legal contractual consequences for failing to record the 7 album commitment?
Jim - Not really, a seven album deal back then was pretty much the standard. Unless you are Metallica or the like, you really don't have much of a choice. There were no negative legal problems from us not completing the seven albums. Roadrunner made the final decision to release the band.

Mike - Do you have any estimates on how many copies of each defiance album were pressed? And since they cannot readily be found I think it would be safe to conclude that the numbers if you have them represent your total album sales. Any insight?
Jim - I don't remember how many copies were pressed worldwide. I did back when it was happening. ;-) Because they are hard to find now doesn't necessarily mean that they all were sold. Quite often, record companies will destroy unsold copies or 'bargain bin' them for tax right-offs. An honest guess on 'Void' would be between 30 and 40 thousand sold.

Mike - What did the members of Defiance think when they heard the comparisons to Testament. And the charges that Defiance were poor song writers? Were the music critics out of line?
Jim - That's the great thing about music, is everyone has their own opinion, and no one is *really* wrong. The Testament comparison was solely based on Steev. Steev kind of sounded like Chuck and he also kind of looked like Chuck, so that comparison was pretty easy for people to make. We never were compared to Testament when Ken or Mitch were with the band. We always worked hard on trying to develop our song writing skills. I felt like we were really starting to come into our own when we did 'Beyond.' That's why it bums me out that album didn't get a better push. Critics are critics.... not usually musicians.

Mike - Any info on how to get the Void Terra Firma Japan re issue? Monte never got back to me after he for some reason thought I was bass player Kaufmann and I told him I was not Mike Kaufmann writing. (I think by talking to you and having an inside view of Current Defiance events, my name being mike and also a bass player he assumed I was kaufmann)
Jim - Once you forwarded me that message from Monte, I was able to contact him regarding the re-release of 'Void.' He told me that for people in the states, they could most likely find it on Amazon or other such sites.

Mike - Any advice for newer bands trying to make it in metal?
Jim - If you love what you are doing and are having fun at it, that's all that matters. Don't do it if all you want is to be a 'rock star.'

Mike - have you heard the newer band Imagika, a direct descendant of the bay area sound? If so what's your opinion? I have one of their CD's and am glad there is a newer band doing real bay area thrash.
Jim - I haven't heard of them, I guess I'll need to do a 'Google' search on them. :-)

Mike - Jim, were you guys approached about playing the Thrash of the Titans benefit show for Chuck Billy? Many fans noted DEFIANCE was missing from the line up. I heard Doug went to the show. Why did a DEFIANCE reunion NOT happen then?
Jim - Actually, we were approached. Not me personally, but I believe Steev and Doug. Just wasn't in the cards for us I guess. Doug did not go to the show (sold out). Steev and I were at the show though. It was a great event.


Mike - OK Jim the last question is the big one. Before you contacted me I had been looking to contact any member of DEFIANCE for over a year. I was not even sure what I would say once I got one of you guys to talk to me. All I knew is that I had to urge the band to reform before I could die in peace. And I cannot fully explain why I felt this was so urgent, all I knew is that it was like some unseen force was pushing me to seek one of you guys out. And then I got an E-mail from you one day. After a week of asking you questions for my own curiosity I decided why not make it all an interview and share it with the many fans who still remember and miss DEFIANCE so I started to organize your answers. Then you got an E-mail from Mike Kaufmann about Steev asking about a reunion show. I had not planned an interview and did not know what I would say when I was contacted by you. I actually mentioned the band reforming and got little back from you and deep down I thought well, that's how it goes with bands. Life moves on and who can afford to live in the past. I really did not expect anyone to take the idea too serious. Now you guys are talking a reunion show totally unrelated to my efforts all brought up by Steev and rather out of the blue at that. I don't know about you Jim but the hair rose on my neck as I contemplated this curious twist of FATE. Now I know why it was that I had to contact you. I was just one player in the events that are leading to the reformation of DEFIANCE. I would like to suggest that the total reformation of the band is a matter of fate and time. If not sooner then later. So many fans want to know. What will it take to get DEFIANCE back together as a working band to produce another album or two? In the least to make those last 4 albums that should have been? Can you say with certainty that a DEFIANCE reformation will not happen at least some time in the future? Do you have any new news to report on the reunion show? How did the band meeting go and what's it look like?
Jim - Well the meeting was great, although Steev did not attend because of other plans. However, I have decided that I will not participate in the reunion at this time due to my schedule. I've been told that Doug also does not have the time right now. I still hope that at some point in the not too distant future we can play a show, but that remains to be seen. So it isn't going to happen right now (at least not for Doug and I), but I will 'never say never.' I still think it would be great to play with the band again someday. I actually hope it is someday soon. I don't know about going out on tour, but to do a couple of local shows would be fun. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Mike - Any parting shots for the fans?
Jim - If you still care about Defiance, thank you.

Mike - Thanks for being with us Jim!
End....

Related:
Mike Dietz is the bass player of underground and unsigned Sanity's Void
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